Ron Paul on Bill O’Reilly discussing the Middle East

It's really hard to add to this. Does it really sound like good policy? I'm inclined to agree with Bill here. That doesn't mean I'm against a redeployment of forces (preferably to Tehran), but getting out of the middle east would be suicidal. Ron does stick to his beliefs though. A reasonably sound piece of journalism here. No attacks particularly, and Ron was allowed to present his facts.

Advertisements

38 Responses to Ron Paul on Bill O’Reilly discussing the Middle East

  1. earthking says:

    Ron should become a Democrat. He sounds more like Obama and Clinton. Am I wrong? I am still undecided about the whole issue here. Anytime I hear info, I feel like it is politically biased. I am open to debate.

  2. I think that Ron Paul spends too much time harping on the fact that he is right about the U.S. having been wrong to invade Iraq. That said, I disagree that this is sound journalism, as Bill-O spends more time reiterating his own subjective position than he does listening to Paul. This seems to be a pattern with O’Reilly, as I’m sure we’ve noticed, and we should be careful not to fall into the trap of categorizing his relatively LESS obnoxious outings as “sound journalism.”

  3. alisbasement says:

    I think Ron Paul is dead on with his view of our foreign policy. I don’t remember being in any danger before we started meddling in other peoples business. Do you think the founders of this country would be proud of the way we’re acting? NO. Iran is not a threat to America, it’s not their policy to destroy the US, that is just that propaganda bullshit that Bush is pushing and creating fear in this country. Ron says it best:

    “It’s our policy of preemptive deliberate invasions of foreign countries and occupying these countries that has jepordized our saftey, this blowpack principal is what caused 9/11 and we have to realize this. If you keep living in this dream land believing that they attack us because we’re free and prosporous, believe me, we’re nevergoing to get away from this policy”

    And, how can you say Ron was allowed to present his facts, everytime he talked Bill cut him off and then at the end started playing music and said “yea, we get it.” He’s an asshole and needs to be shut down.

  4. the other comment was decidedly ignorant, and this one transcends that to altogether retarded. Iran is no threat?

  5. hi M. Fred…I was overcome by the fact that a discussion was carried on The Factor. you’re pretty much right. I think Bill’s view is probably closer to my own than Dr. Paul’s.

  6. hi earthking. I’m undecided as well. Hard to pick between I hate em, I can’t stand em, what a furbrain. I’ll probably no which one i hate the least when i close the curtain. One things certain…political party will not matter.

  7. Conundrum says:

    first off – anyone willing to gn on the O’Reilly show knows they either must parrot his opinions or risk being interrupted and brow-beaten into appearing foolish. No sympathy there.

    I think Paul makes a good point that we never should have been in Iraq – we should have finished the bin Laden/Taliban/al Qaeda mission in Afghanistan before abandoning the mission. That is a repeat of Vietnam in the sense that “we” didn’t try to finish the job.

    Bush claimed that there was an axis of evil and then attacked the only one of the three that had no wmd’s. By weakening the Iraqi government by deposing Saddam (yes he was evil and good riddance) but his removal freed Iran to focus on other targets unburdened by a need to fend off Iraq. Hence the resources and energy to prop up Hezbollah to attack Israel. When Paul says that Hezbollah stuff was not affecting us, he is wrong thanks to the ability of the Israeli lobbies to blackmail congress into doing anything Israel needs and wants.

    All that having been said, Bush took us to Iraq, destroyed their infrastructure, and eliminated all their civil structure. He allegedly wanted to change the country to a democracy and it has appeared to fail…however that is nationbuilding when one tries to change the country’s government structure. Shame on us for bombing their country all to hell – that has made me reluctant to call for withdrawal on the basis we bombed it to pieces, we have some obligation to put it back together…if only they would let us.

    Now he (W) refuses to address that Iraq is likely only to be governed as three sectarian tribal areas/countries. It has become clear that Saddam was on to something with a ruthless dictatorship to cowl them into submission and hold the country together. That seems to be the kind of governance the middle east people understand.

    Paul, the Democrats, the Bushies and O’Reilly – they are all right to some degree.

    We are there. We made a mess. It appears impossible to solve anything in the middle east – everyone hates everyone else for what happened a thousand years ago or 5000 years ago.

    We never should have gotten in that mess in Iraq. The only winners are the corporations that got huge no bid contracts to support the US military and make futile efforts at rebuilding Iraq.

    My heart breaks for the dedicated members of our armed forces who followed orders and went there to do as told. It was all a foolish action at best, hoax by the Cheney/Haliburton puppet-masters at worst.

    I don’t have the answers even though I’m aware enough to see the debacle. If I had the answers, I would be running for national office.

    This all breaks my heart for what these people have done to our country. We as a people are hated for what our government has done.

  8. alisbasement says:

    Unfortunately you’re the ignorant one. I know people from Iran living here and over there and they have no problem with the US. The US has a problem with Iran because it won’t conform to it’s wishes, that’s what the real issue. Also, your boy Bush just dropped his panties and is declaring that we lost the war, he’s withdrawing 30k troops, what do you have to say on that?

  9. i have to say that conforms exactly to the original timetable for withdrawing troops. Themost unfortunate thing about the war in the middle east is we fight it far to softly. what a wonderful area for the use of tactical nuclear weapons. Oh, fuck Iran. The people elected the idiot in charge, and therefore deserve to have their nation turned into a parking lot.

    I would probably almost like you Ali if every word out of your mouth wasn’t the same srupid propoganda.

  10. alisbasement says:

    What timeline? Wasn’t Bush asking for more troops just a few months ago, please jump off the bandwagon, he lied and led us astray and it’s time to bring our young people home, they don’t deserve to die this way. Yes, exactly Iran elected their own President, just like we did. Lot’s of people don’t like our President either, does that mean the US needs to become a parking lot? You’re really not making any sense. Whatever hatred you spew about Iran, people on the other side of the world feel the same about our government. This is not a hatred of people vs people, it’s hatred of government. Get over yourself, you’re not that special that Iranis spend their days hating you because you’re an American and live “free”.

    What propoganda am I pushing? I’m not Irani, Iraqi or Afghani, I’m an American, born and raised. All I want is for everyone to be able to live their own way, I don’t believe it’s OUR right to go over to any country and tell them how to live their lives. Think about it this way, if “they” hate us and we hate them, then when does this vicious cycle end? Rather than using your blog to spread hatred, why don’t you spend some time to understand the people you’re so openly hating.

  11. Incredible.

    The antisocialist was riveted, criminyjicket, though your website lately, including that video, is a bit glitchy we’ve noticed.

    There is, alisbasement, an entire sea of militant Islamic puddles that cover the mideast and the west, many of which puddles actually and genuinely believe that their version of armaggedon cannot come until “the great satan is wiped off the face of the earth.” This quote is referring, of course, to the United States of America, and not, mind you, to the U.S. occupation of the middle east. Additionally, it comes not from a small element of Islam out there on the lunatic fringe but rather… well, can you guess which leader said that? We’ll give you a hint: he’s Iranian, and he’s alive and in power.

    Did you know, alisbasement, that the Hizballah, the so-called “party of God, has a stated goal of “blowing Isreal off the map”? And we’re not just talking blowjobs, either. Did you know that since the 1980’s the Islamic Republic of Iran and the militant Sunni Islamic movements have, over the course of two decades, steadily escalated terror activities, thereby spawning an ever-growing gallery of Islamic terrorist groups, which the Syrian and Iranian government sponsor into the present day? Did you know that the fatwah (Islamic legal ruling) of Iran ordered a hit put out on a man named Salman Rushdie, for him writing about a series of historical verses that Mohammed actually wrote, but then later retracted? Did you know that in 1991, on the eve of the Madrid Peace Conference, Islamic terror groups from over forty separate countries publicly declared that they were “against ever making any kind of peace” with the west or the Jewish state? Did you know that the intense Arab-Islamic hatred of the west, according to the militant extremists themselves, such as, for example, bin Laden, “goes back many centuries” (emphasis added) “remaing to this day a driving force at the core of militant Arab-Islamic political culture.”? Did you know, furthermore, that this “would have been the case even if Isreal had never been born.”? Did you know that in their own words again, this all extends back to at least 1683, when the Muslim “thrust” into Europe was first broken? That the subsequent decline of Ottoman power relative to Christian power was “long and painful” to militant Islam? That in 1798 Napolean, in full command, seized Egypt without any difficulty, and Islam, by their own admission, has “never fogotten.”?

    In the words of one middle-eastern historian, “there can be no exaggerating the confusion and humiliation which descended on the Arab and Muslim world as a result of these developments.”

    And that’s only the tip of the iceberg.

    As a friendly suggestion, you might consider cracking open a book that goes beyond Noam Chomsky’s dithyrambics and the frozen dogma of the last sixty years. The real antagonism is not between militant Islam and Western imperialism, as Doctor Paul would have us all believe; it is, rather, as usual, between authoritarian dictatorship and freedom.

    But you needn’t take the antisocialist’s word for it, especially not in such close juxtaposition to that redoubtable and towering political philosopher Doctor Ron Paul. Reading bin Laden’s own words and philosophy, starting long before 9/11, concerning his hatred of America will open your eyes somewhat — if, that is, you and Ron Paul really believe what you say above. The antisocialist can promise you that you’re in for a bit of a surprise, because that utter antipathy goes far, far deeper than the naive, simplistic “occupation for oil,” as Doctor Paul so eloquently puts it.

    Or, alternately, read a bit of the literature by any number of Islamic groups, as, for instance, the Association of Islamic Societies and Communities (ICCB), whose publication Mohammed’s Nation calls for, among other things, “the violent overthrow of the United States of America” and brands “the Jews” as “enemies of humanity.”

    Also, here’s another quote for you to think about next time you hear Doctor Chomsky or Doctor Paul talking about how we, you and I and criminyjicket, brought all this upon ourselves, because these good militant Islamic folks are just benevolent people who have been incited one too many times: “We have to thoroughly demoralize the enemies of God … by means of destroying and blowing up the towers that constitute the pillars of their civilization, such as the tourist attractions and the high buildings of which, like their freedom, they are so proud…” Do you know who said that, and said it, moreover, long before 9/11? Take a guess, you’ll most likely be right.

    In 1994, PBS aired a piece of investigative journalism called Jihad in American, which, among other things, showed a compicated plexus woven like quiltwork throughout Islamic terror groups. At that time, the early nineties, since the Iranian revolution there were, thoroughly documented, a staggering number of terror groups living in America; for instance, there were brances of Hamas, Hizballah, Brotherhood of Islamic Jihad, and cells of the Sunni Mujahdeen, with headquarters in Brooklyn, New Jersey, Tampa, Chicago, Detroit, Kansas City, and even Oklahoma City. Now as you would (or perhaps you would not) imagine, all these different organizations, with all their thousands and thousands of individual members, begin in no time to develop their own ideas and philosophies, so that soon, each group takes on a life it its own.

    If you really believe that this profound and absolute hatred is motivated and sustained solely by our “oil interests in the mideast” — and mind you this is only a tiny, tiny taste of the sheer numbers and facts here — and if you believe it, furthermore, without a cursory glance into the long and undistinguished history of it all, then perhaps, after all, you do belong in those polished and breezy precincts of MIT.

  12. you see…anti knows things because he is a very educated man, and I know things because my kid told me.

    good to see oyu anti…as always, your comment decimated my post. *L*

  13. i don’t look at countries, and I don’t hate Iran. They are a threat..it should be rectified…life goes on.

    as far as everyone living their own way, the very people we are fighting refuse to allow others to live their own way. Who you apparently support are the jackboot thugs running around killing and raping and maiming. Kill little girls because they are on their way to school? How can you defend them?

  14. Hi Con. Our government has always worked exactly as its working now. this herd of losers is no different than the herd that sent us into sarajevo, failed to send us into Rwanda, sent us into Somalia, into Vietnam, into Korea.

    We are not hated for our government. We are hated for being the big dog in the pound. We haven’t evolved far enough yet for higher ideals to overcome instinct.

    I guess it comes down to would you rather be hated or feared? The salaciously fictitious religions that control the behaviour of the masses dictate that you either fight or succumb. There is unfortunately no middle ground.

  15. Hardly that, my friend.

  16. Conundrum says:

    I relish your blog. It makes me think and I like that. Thanks.

  17. alisbasement says:

    I’m a US born/raised Muslim, I don’t need a history lesson. You might need a refresher tho, you easily forget that our country funded Bin Laden, Saddam, and countless others to carry out their dirty deeds. The US is quick to arm those who can assist them in their global domination and even quicker to turn our backs when these people aren’t in our best interest.

    Also, how can you judge others what we ourselves do. This country was founded by the extermination of Native Americans. We started a war in Vietnam and Korea over fear of communism. We dropped an A-bomb on Japan. We sold weapons to Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan and countless others. We have taken political leaders out that don’t follow our orders in South America, Middle East and elsewhere. We’ve raped and pillaged with the best of them. Should people not be angry with us? Are we really that innocent? Do we not have blood on our hands too? Come on, that’s like the pot calling the kettle black.

    I know there are radicals out there, but I refuse to believe the published print. It is in this current Govt’s best interest to spread fear of “terror” and panic, otherwise Americans will not back the illegal wars and inhuman torture being carried out around the world. If there are so many “terror cells”, why are we not seeing more attacks? I definitely don’t see any arrests and when I do, it’s a big story for a few days and then it goes away because charges are dropped. I’m glad that you pointed out that it’s not Islam vs the West, because that’s not the case at all. It’s a bunch of idiots vs god knows who, they don’t represent us. I know that they’re using Islam as a platform, but we don’t accept them as true Muslims, but, yet you and the rest of the media label these morons as “Islamic Radicals” and “Muslim Radicals”, why not just group them into one category, all religious radicals go into the “Religious Radicals” group, because none of the religions actually accept them.

    My whole point to this is that it pains me to see hatred being written against Islam, Muslims, or countries that represent the faith, because certain people and certain leaders don’t speak for an entire nation. Whether you agree or disagree with their way of life, there needs to be a sense of tolerance. I know you’re going to have your opinions, but let’s make them constructive.

  18. alisbasement says:

    I urge you all to go to your local library or bookstore and read “Confessions of an Economic Hit Man” by John Perkins. It’s a real eye-opener. Here’s the quick info from Amazon.com:

    “John Perkins started and stopped writing Confessions of an Economic Hit Man four times over 20 years. He says he was threatened and bribed in an effort to kill the project, but after 9/11 he finally decided to go through with this expose of his former professional life. Perkins, a former chief economist at Boston strategic-consulting firm Chas. T. Main, says he was an “economic hit man” for 10 years, helping U.S. intelligence agencies and multinationals cajole and blackmail foreign leaders into serving U.S. foreign policy and awarding lucrative contracts to American business. “Economic hit men (EHMs) are highly paid professionals who cheat countries around the globe out of trillions of dollars,” Perkins writes. Confessions of an Economic Hit Man is an extraordinary and gripping tale of intrigue and dark machinations. Think John Le Carré, except it’s a true story.”

    I’m just asking you keep an open mind and give it a read and then let me know what you think.

  19. Keith says:

    I think Rons right about how we got here. but I also think that most other countrys love to hate America, reson or not and I don’t think Russia or China have a problem undermining America any way they can and grinning the whole time, and once the oil companys in Iraq are in place and secure the troops will come home and the oil co. will have to deal with there own security, bought or fought, and other countrys will be doing there best to take it the same way. I havn’t heard anything about China being on Pakistan Muslim soil from Osana or anyone else, only the Americans are the evil that must be destroyed. No body likes the richest biggest bully not even the other big bully’s. When another country needs something who do they ask?

  20. Keith says:

    Sorry no picture

  21. thank you con…your comments tend to make me think as well…always good to see you here.

    ali…always good to see you as well though I tend to disagree with everythingyou say. I hadn’t forgot those things, and in fact can give you chapter and verse on our foreign policy misadventures in the 80’s as I lived them in that neck of the woods. It doesn’t change where we are, or where we are going though.

    I’m not sure I can answer each point so if some are really important feel free to press me for an answer.

    I’m a bit of a pragmatist. I’m a little upset that we didn’t do a better job of forcing assimilation on native americans as I feel they would be better off now had we. The deplorable conditions many of them live under are a direct result of our failures. As far as exterminating them…I wasn’t around, and I lack a whole lot of sympathy.

    While many muslims do not accept them, a far larger majority globally does. Have you watched the poll numbers? Are you paying attention to current events? Europe is going bonkers over it, Indonesia is contemplating shariaa law, and all across the middle east the radicals receive wide support. Those that don’t support them don’t tend to challenge them either.

    hi Kieth… rather well said. I agree with Ron on a lot of things, just find that he is incapable of explaining how he will enact his programs…that’s my major issue with him…no details…little explanation of the how

  22. Alisbasement-
    Why do so few anti-war people acknowledge that Islamic terrorists are dangerous and crazy?

    Antisocialist-
    Why do so few pro-war people acknowledge that the U.S. govt. is corrupt, the media is corrupt, and most corporations like (i.e., Halliburton) are corrupt?

    As terrorists become crazier and more dangerous, the corrupt powers that be in the U.S. make more money. Why? Because Americans are afraid, and thus we support sending our poor to die in lucrative circle-jerk wars?

    Antisocialist, you seem to know your shit. Many of your pro-war allies willingly turn their backs on some of the facts which your point out, especially the fact that “all these different organizations, with all their thousands and thousands of individual members, begin in no time to develop their own ideas and philosophies, so that soon, each group takes on a life it its own.” Since you know & acknowledge that not all terrorists are attached at the hips, you probably also are aware that when “we” (i.e., mostly poor Americans whose best/only option was to join the military) first got to Afghanistan, the Northern Alliance made millions by handing over local terrorists who were gung-ho about stirring shit up in Afghanistan but who could have cared less about the U.S. or 9/11. You’re absolutely right in pretty much everything you say, which is why I find your conclusion so baffling. As the U.S. military presence in the Middle East grows, what do you think will happen to the (currently) non-violent Muslims who find themselves under constant military surveillance and scrutiny. I’ll give you a clue: it will be very similar to the effect that 9/11 had on formerly peaceful Americans who suddenly supported nationbuilding in Iraq.

    Ordinary people respond to fear. Powerful people harness it for their advantages. You say that that we, you and I and CJ and Ali, didn’t bring 9/11 upon ourselves. Do you belief that ordinary Iraqis brought the misery they face today upon themselves???

  23. PS: Criminy, I want to second Conundrum’s comment. Though your blog strikes me as being much further to the right than mine, it somehow has the ability to attract enlightened conservatives and to repel the ignorant ones. Thank you fellow commenters for a (relatively) mature discussion. You inspire me to keep my insults in the holster!

  24. […] Frederick Voorhees (This blog entry was adapted from a comment I left in a debate triggered by criminyjicket’s blog entry about Bill O’Reilly’s sandbagging of Ron Paul.  If you’re intelligent dialog with conservatives who transcend the “jesus Hates […]

  25. Voorhees,

    Who, besides you, ever said the antisocialist believed America guiltless and pristine?

    Where the hell is that non sequitur coming from?

    The antisocialist’s whole thesis was this: militant Islam hates us for far more than “imperialism.” They hate us down to our philosophical roots. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

  26. alisbasement, the antisocialist wasn’t questioning your citizenship, because to him the question is irrelevant. It is non-factor. Nor were you given a history lesson, whether you need one or not.

    Instead, you were provided with a tiny, tiny taste of the real reasons that militant Islam anathematizes the west. I don’t know that anyone claimed that the United States was utterly blameless — it certainly wasn’t me — but even so, what exactly are you saying? That “our country funded Bin Laden, Saddam, and countless others to carry out their dirty deeds. The US is quick to arm those who can assist them in their global domination …” and therefore we had 911 and all the rest coming, no? Yes? Militant Islam is not really to blame, then, after all? No? Yes? So now we just sit back and take our lumps, but what I want to know is when can we consider ourselves paid back? After we’re annhilated, or before?

    This is about faith — you are correct on that point — not, however, the faith you suppose: Christianity versus Islam. Rather, this is about faith versus freedom. Whatever crimes the U.S. is guilty of — and there are many — let us ask this question first: whose philosophy is more compatible with the principles of freedom? And to whom is freedom more of a priority? And what country still has the most freedom in the world? And does freedom matter much? And what precisely is the stance of militant Islam on the issue of freedom? And is their poor view of freedom my fault as well, and yours? And do you still really mean to tell us that the whole reason militant Islam wants to “blow the United States off the map” is because we are “imperialistic”? This has nothing to do with extremest faith, you’re saying, and how that faith regards freedom and free markets? Yes? No? And so we should not believe their own words, but rather yours? And Noam Chomsky’s?

    Faith, being the diametrical opposite of reason, must ultimately and inevitably result in force. There is no alternative.

    History proves this correct, but it is more just a logical extension of the premise.

    Now, then: since you yourself are “urging” us to read that tired book Confessions of an Economic Hitman that we all read in the winter of 2006, allow us to recommend one to you; for here you very clearly are in need of a history lessen, whatever you say: http://www.amazon.com/Indian-Wars-Campaign-American-West/dp/1594160163/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-8666563-0428605?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189764646&sr=8-1
    Among other things, this book will show you in great detail the endless wars among the American Indian tribes before the white man came to settle the country, and so on your and Chomsky’s premise, since the Indians had such a history of bellicosity, they then “deserved” what they got? No? Yes? Just as we do now, for “financing bin Laden. Yes?

    While you’re at it, all of you, if you have thirty seconds, watch this trailer, the link to which is at the end of this post; better yet, watch the whole film. And to all of you also, no matter how much you dislike America, and no matter how culpable you think America is, and no matter how little you understand the priciples that the United States was founded upon, please do not ever be fooled, by alisbasement or anyone, into believing that faith is compatible with individual rights. It isn’t.

    http://www.obsessionthemovie.com/trailer.php

  27. alisbasement says:

    criminyjicket – look I’m not a democrat, republic, liberal, conservative or any of thoese “groups.” I’m just a human being and I want to be a global citizen. Of course, I watch current events, I’m glued to the tv, blogs, newspapers, I’m always trying to learn more. I could care less what polls say b/c to say they’re propoganda to continue this war on “terror.” I have visited countries like Pakistan, Saudi, UK, France, etc and I’ve talked to people, the common folk have no ill will towards the US, now are there radicals? of course. Just like there are Christian, Jewish, Moron, atheist and ‘whatever-else’ radicals, the focus is just on Islam at the moment. I don’t feel we need to live in fear, we need to take time to understand who these people are and how to coexist without bloodshed. Islam is not the enemy, it’s radicalism and extemism that is the problem and unfortunately war can’t solve it.

    M. Frederick Voorhees – like I said above, I’m not turning a blind eye to radicals, but “terrorists” and “terror” are all terms created by our current administration to create fear in this country. This country won’t back a war without fear of an attack, but slowly Americans are waking up to the lies and are no longer backing this war. They want their sons and daughters home. We need to work on our foreign policies and learn to communicate with the world, not just drop bombs. Why do you prefer war over open communication and a fair resolution? Also, think about how profitable this war has been for our country. It was in our best interest, not politically, but financially to go to war. Booz, Northrup, CACI, SAIC etc are all banking right now, do you even know the sizes of these government contracts for work in Iraq and Afghanistan, billions upon billions of dollars and we’re paying for it all through our taxes, so if you’re cool with that, then keep supporting the war. I’d rather see my money go to improving America internally, we have a lot of people here who can’t afford college, homes, health insurance, retirement and more. But, hey that’s just me, right?

  28. alisbasement says:

    I’m sure most of you watched Bush’s address on Thursday, well here is Sen Jack Reed’s (D-RI) well-written and well-delivered response that boiled down to four basic bullet points:

    * 27,000 wounded
    * 3,700 killed
    * No clear and achievable mission
    * 10 billion dollars a month

    Is this really what you want in Iran and other Middle Eastern countries? We are an intelligent nation, I am certain we can find a better way than war.

  29. hi ali…i would certainly hope you are right. I think one of the issues is that middle eastern leaders seem to have no ability to negotiate anything that the radical groups will abide by.
    It’s always hard to negotiate with people whose key goal is your conversion or extermination

  30. and to your other comment. I’ve been to a few myself, and generally speaking you are correct, though American soldiers tend to find opposition in the strangest places.
    You are strongly understating or underestimating the power of the Islamic fringe. I think it’s a little intimidating knowing that your enemy will kill himself to make a point, taking soldiers and women and children with him with no regard whatever for life. It’s not an easy thing to relate to, and people willing to do that are not always that easy to work with diplomatically.

  31. Hello M. Fred…thank you for the kind words. I enjoy your blog as well. It’s always good to read you, and anti, and ali, and…well…a bunch of others. you’re an interesting bunch

    oh yes….barry day….give him a read.

  32. Brad says:

    CJ, thank you for having this forum for intelligent, thought provoking debate! And thank you everyone else, especially Ali and Anti.

    Anti you seem to say either we as a collective are to blame or Arabs collectively are to blame. The Arab societies that we are attacking are being punished for what you admit a fringe is responsible for. A fringe that might ally with dictatorships in some countries like formerly in Afghanistan, but not wholly representative of the people. Not the tens or hundreds of thousands dead who did not elect Saddam or the Taliban.

    People in the middle east have reasons to be angry at the west in a similar fashion that Americans are angry about 9-11.

    Our continued military support of Israel has allowed more land to be taken from Palestinians and more civilians killed. There are terrorists in Palestine but it generally is a war of one side having nuclear weapons, new tanks, missles, apache helicopters and more versus a side with home made explosives and rocks. Of course Palestinians and others in the middle east are going to be angry. In all of the conflict in Israel/Palestine since the 1920’s, still 120,000 people on both sides have died. How does that compare to the last 15 years in Iraq? How about the last 4?

    How about Iraq sanctions? After killing 100,000 or so in ’91 we left the IRAQI PEOPLE unable to clean their water leading to unprecedented deaths (search the FOIA sites for the Defense Intelligence Agency, they INTENTIONALLY poisoned Iraq’s water supply and prevented them from rebuilding it in HOPES they’d rise up and overthrow saddam). In 1995 Madeleine Albright on national TV said the sanctions were worth killing over 500,000 children TO THAT DATE.

    So let me get this straight: if a handful of extremists kill 3,000 of OUR innocent people the US government has carte blanche to take over as many countries in the middle east as they want, kill as many people, torture as many people BUT if there is 50 years of US supporting dictators in the ME, supporting an Israeli regime that is stealing their land and killing them, enforcing a sanctions regime that strengthened Saddam and killed well over 1,000,000 people, Clinton bombing Al Shifa in the Sudan killing possibly tens, possible hundreds of thousands of people… they don’t have a right to be angry and we are wrong to think these extremists are acting because we have killed, tortured, maimed, otherthrown, occupied, allied with oppressors and so on in their lands for 50+ years. They have NO right to be angry and Dr. Paul’s assertion for 9/11 as blowback is absurd?

    That’s as ludicrous as saying Operation Enduring Freedom wasn’t blowback for 9/11.

    Also, to Keith…
    We do give immense military aid to Israel, Pakistan and Colombia to mostly kill insurgents who disagree with US corporations controlling THEIR natural resources and lands but internationally we give very little aid when you compare the percentage of the GNP that is given compared to just about any European country… also, I could be wrong but I believe that INCLUDES military aid.

    In fact, when we need money (which we do now) WE GO TO CHINA, not the other way around. We are immensely in debt to China because of Bush’s mismanaging just about everything since he took office.

  33. Trivium says:

    What’s Up CJ,

    Nice to see that you’re keeping up the good fight against everyones favorite Texas congressman. Hope all is well with you and yours.

    I’ll keep this short, as I have been having this same argument everyday for the past couple months with various people in my life. So I’ll ask the same question I have asked every other War on Terror (Peace) advocate. What is winning?
    Killing Osama maybe. Nuking the middle east and giving the land to Israel maybe. Or I know is it when the elite war profiters have filled their bank accounts to their liking (never). Or is it creating enough fear in the minds of Americans to go along with whatever crazy idea the politicians have (NAFTA,CAFTA,Amero).

    I would just like to know your opinions on how you win a war against an idea. I’ve heard the usual, We are fighting them over there so we dont have to fight them here (meanwhile our borders are open to being terrorist flood gates) and We broke it, We bought it (wow is all I have to say) or my personal favorite the liberation of the Iraqi people (I guess liberation now means destroying a countries infrastructure and family system, while also driving 2 million people from their homes to refugee camps where recruiting radicals is liking selling ice water in hell)

    If you can show me a good reason to believe that fighting militias like they are nations instead of covertly infiltrating these cells and destroying them at their core,then maybe I’ll step over to the darkside (just kidding, but couldn’t you imagine GWB declaring war in Iran by wearing a full on darth vader suit and saying “Ahmadinejad, I am your Father”),but until then I’ll stick with my belief that their are three objectives in this war.

    1. Profit
    2. Oil
    3. Israel

    Keep on keeping on

    Peace

  34. Davron says:

    criminyjicket, you are just another ignorant, blind motherfucker.

    no point of arguing with idiots like you – Bill O’Reilly would be happy to have your ass on his stupid ass show

  35. hi Davron…your thought provoking and insightful grasp of the situation is incredible. It’s always so good to have a closet intellectual visit

  36. hi triv…we can never expect our leaders to know how to fight any war. They are generically pussies, and have all the strategic intellect of a retarded mouse.

    what we should be doing is using special ops troops to slaughter these people with reckless abandon. Special attention should be paid to maximize collateral damage so they understand that we are fiercer than they are.

  37. Tony Barillo says:

    Ron Paul is right… Backlash is what happened in on 911.. The big bully USA trying to spread ? over the world. The little guy will defend himself with a weapon, knife, glass, anything… just like in High School… You pick on a little guy enough for no good reason “Backlash” is going to happen…. Didn’t we support Afaganstan against Russia Didn’t we support Iran against Iraq and Iraq agaist Iran…..

    We have enough problems in our back yard…

    Health care, poverty, race, government wasteful programs… Like the War for instance… Who’s paying for this War.. What is it a “billion” a week… For what… Usa needs to protect us not the rest of the world….

  38. Tony Barillo says:

    “A democracy cannot maitain existence with a moralistic society…”

    And were in big trouble on that…

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: